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Yes. By that time I think Schwarzschild was beginning to realize that he could take advantage of some of our NASA competence, and I think it actually worked out quite happily. He called it a "huge dumb Explorer," and that's what HEAO grew out of it. But you know, I don't do the engineering, so yes, there are others. I think he really had grand ideas of the two of them merging eventually and becoming a competitor to Goddard. I was still at Yerkes, and that's the only ONR support I had. Then, the King's Point Civil Service one in '62 or '63, was something that just about all people at grades 13 to 15 go to. Experts reveal how grinning can make... Official Site of Cathédrale Restaurant by Tao Group Hospitality. I thought it was a small segment that just died out. We were pressured to do this. I took atomic physics, which was modern physics. And what I'm saying is, I think there are things that need doing, and I'm very much in favor of planetary detection and that sort of thing, with something like the Space Telescope or possibly Hipparchus, although I'm a little bit more dubious about Hipparchus. And I don't think I have very extensively since. We went in and we completely redesigned a good bit of the electronic system. So we can say, you had no awareness of a major change? He handled that, then you probably handled the scientific side of the OAO. Certainly, in your experience, who was your engineering counterpart? That convinced me that I belonged in astronomy. That's where the V-2's were in the late forties. So I found it a pretty discouraging course. These two particular studies didn't quite agree with one another. We review it. And I think I can say that, thanks to technological developments and a lot of other people, it was a fairly successful switch. But they're my whole world, so I think I could do it.'. I don't think that's terribly unusual. Why?" I said, "All my life. Well, I don't know. There was a lot of discussion, pro and con, for both approaches. I do remember (Jan) Oort asked me one time, "Why did you leave astronomy?" They paid my pay and per diem for going to the Observatory. OK, fine. I know it came from above. I've forgotten now what share. In my junior year I took a seminar. I think I've always had good relations with N.U. Yes. Yes, it seemed as though when NASA began taking these centers over, they then had to turn right around and go back to the Department of Defense for their expertise. What about major funding directions? There wasn't any question about that. This was with the idea of doing the gravitational red shift experiment. Were you responsible for answering these criticisms? Certainly no more than any other children. I think some of the old NACA people did. And in fact when he was director of Kitt Peak, he was doing a lot of work on a 50-inch (automatic) telescope and we did give him some support for design studies, but that was later. She worked half time for many years and then went to three quarter time and then about a year ago went to full time. There were relatively few astronomers. Now, the second thing: the decision I mentioned. And it's a story that I found, a story I am worried about,' she explained. Do you remember the approximate year that you started that club? Yes. I wouldn't have gone to the second one, except that Penn State was just starting a course on Women in Management, and they strongly urged a group of us who were in government management to come and to help them get started. And that was really a pretty good clue to the condition of things in general. Right. And of course actually, even before I came to NASA, the Orbiting Astronomical Observatory program was in its very preliminary formative period, and the participants at that time were Spitzer, Goldberg, and Code, all of whom have remained very staunch supporters of space astronomy ever since. Newell was the responsible person and was automatically held responsible for everything, even though there's probably absolutely nothing he could have done about it. Financially, the science program has always been small compared to the manned program, ever since it started. I've had no problems working with people that I'm aware of because I'm a woman. Then OAO B was flown. Second year was general physics, and unfortunately the man who normally taught it, and actually started out teaching it, who was very good, left after two or three months, maybe less than that, to go to Los Alamos. People at Marshall I think were quite happy about the switch. We had the OAO program by then, yes. Roman's office, National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), Bidelman, William Pendry, 1918-|Blaauw, Adriaan|Bowen, Ira Sprague, 1898-1973|Code, Arthur D.|Eisenhower, Dwight D. (Dwight David), 1890-1969|Friedman, Herbert, 1916-2000|Giacconi, Riccardo|Gill, Jocelyn R.|Goldberg, Leo|Johnson, Lyndon B. And even if he could have, I suspect it wouldn't have helped. And needless to say, there's a certain amount of dreaming built into this to allow for some flexibility during the year, but it is there, nevertheless. I don't even remember Wayne State. That's interesting, discouraging but interesting. So I should take courses in other things and be sure that astronomy was what I wanted. Now, we do what we call an operating plan. There were three men in the class and none of them expected to be able to finish the term. The airborne instrument was somewhat better at pointing, and had limited area. I didn't want to stay in Baltimore, and even if I had, Goucher wasn't that strong in astronomy. And we had to start over again several years later. Aden Meinel particularly was pushing for a 50-inch telescope at that time. Yes. That's why we left Nashville. But, I got some. Copernicus too. The basic ideas were the same, but there were very major modifications. Up until about a year ago it was Warren Keller. In OAO II, we put in the capability of commanding that switch from the ground, overriding the automatic. Did you ever consider yourself stopping school and participating in the war effort somehow? Have you encountered that kind of feeling anywhere? Even though it was not a terribly successful venture still I think it was something worth trying in the early period, to find out what could be done. They recommended me for a position at Vassar. All the research agencies. It doesn't matter. The only thing I can see is that they were used to dealing with the Air Force, and that they thought it might be more saleable to the Air Force. My physics teacher was very well meaning but not good as a physics teacher. Yes, but not originally. Yes. So the infrared balloon work was unmanned and remote controlled and there was your pointing accuracy? Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope. Absolutely, I certainly have enough record of that. This will show my ignorance, but I am very interested in learning more about that. I think it was true everywhere. The AIP's interviews have generally been transcribed from tape, edited by the interviewer for clarity, and then further edited by the interviewee. It changed all the time. I just mean that they did welcome me as someone they had known for many years, and were glad to see come back and try to do a little research. In fact, I can say that about the government. In the first place, it was more challenging. And I think their feeling at that point was that they did not want to divert sources for the ground-based effort into the space effort at the level that it would have been required to have a healthy continuing space group there. Is there any truth to that? That was one thing. It was not a major occupation. I think people were doing the best that they could do. I didn't know it until recently. Of course this is more than just NASA, although it's primarily NASA. There is an exception, and that is the Scout. I wasn't involved in any of that. I think SETI has been something that has been pushed on us. Then each office also has an administrative type who worries about that type of thing. I'm trying to remember. In spite of the fact that it was a field that I knew and which I had tried to keep up with, the complete switch in thinking between a very high pressure administrative job, and sitting down and researching the literature and writing a review paper, were just so different that I found it very difficult to make the switch. One, Zacharias was relatively powerful politically. I still feel, looking back, that I was useful to the branch, and I think people in the branch would say that too. That was done while you were still on your thesis? That's a different situation. The Scout was a NASA development and the military did buy the Scouts through us, and in many cases, we launched them for them. I just didn't think the technology was ready. I don't think that's a useless bit of education. I don't think he would have had as many problems if he and the people at Goddard who were developing rocket instrumentation could have had a better interchange of ideas. These are pretty big guns on the opposite side. So I was beginning to keep my eyes open. One is a decision I made unilaterally, with some criticism, which I think was the right decision, and the other was geodesy. He wasn't with NASA all that long. I don't know if those are the sorts of answers that you had in mind? Right. Instead of buying three Fords off the assembly line, from the same year we buy a 1950 Ford, a 1955 Ford, a 1960 Ford, which are rather different. Well, I think there the answer is the realization of the importance of the politics in the scientific community and the government community, and the fact that it's something we have to deal with. But I have a feeling that he and the rocket group at Goddard did not communicate. As NASA became organized, Army facilities at JPL and Huntsville were "acquired." Take geodesy first. I don't think Phil Fischer ever recovered. Did you have any decisions after the big cutbacks in the early seventies that were comparable, that were equally tough, equally memorable? Was the money already allocated for the general program, and this was simply money that you had not expected to use on the ref light? They really do work as a team. They were funded by the Air Force. But you think that it was thrust upon you? Not overtly, I think is what I can say. Not very much. With one exception. Well, my father's degree was joint in physics and mathematics, but he went into geophysics just after I was born. I'm just confused because I didn't understand whether it was the failure of the package or the failure of the rocket. That was only one that I ran across briefly. I'm familiar with the project of Frank Low and Al Harper and associates in flying their small infra-red telescope that had a bolometer on the end of it. In addition, we tried to get a little science involved in the manned program. My purpose was partly to tell them what we were planning at NASA and what the NASA opportunities were, but it was equally to try to get from them a feeling of what they thought NASA ought to be doing; what they saw as part of a space astronomy program. Indeed it was what they needed to sell the idea of a major telescope on an airplane that would be well stabilized. Yes. But that is true generally. And actually, when I got to Yerkes, I was expecting to find graduate school harder than undergraduate, and instead I found it easier. Yes. Interviews that offer unique insights into the lives, works, and personalities of modern scientists. At that time, the very first year or so or two years of NASA's growth, of course it was oriented toward small scientifically oriented missions and probes and that sort of thing. It was Mayall, at Kitt Peak, and Blanco at Tololo who were the directors but the welcome extended through the staff.

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