origin of a fine kettle of fish

– meaning and origin of ‘the devil to pay’ I have exposed several other folk etymologies, in particular in the following articles: origin of ‘Indian summer’ and French ‘été sauvage’. In 1785 Thomas Newte published A Tour in England and Scotland. A fine kettle of fish definition: an awkward situation ; mess | Meaning, pronunciation, translations and examples The unrelated noun kiddle is from Anglo-Norman forms such as kidel and Old French forms such as quidel, of obscure origin.). Incidentally, and just to go off at a tangent for a moment, the two meanings of the verb 'poach', which are 'steal game' and 'cook by simmering in water', both derive from the French 'pocher', which means 'put in a bag'. I have exposed several other folk etymologies, in particular in the following articles: History: Although originated in the United Kingdom, this phrase is also prevalently used in the United States. Define kettle of fish. This has led to a phenomenon typical of folk etymologies, that is, stories fabricated in order to give them a semblance of authenticity. It's not an easy job, but I'm up to the task again this year. Nice Kettle of Fish : Phrases Meaning: This term is usually part of 'a fine kettle of fish', 'a pretty kettle of fish' etc, which mean 'a muddle or awkward state of affairs'. All weirs then removed altogether from Thames and Medway, and throughout England, except along the sea. The usual explanation of ‘Hobson’s choice’ is fallacious. The other is more of an exclamation: either as a pretty kettle of fish! The expression 'a different kettle of fish' has, as seems fitting, a different meaning, which is 'an alternative; a different thing altogether'. Find more opposite words at wordhippo.com! – The usual explanation of ‘Hobson’s choice’ is fallacious. Wednesday, January 11, 2017 - 09:00. Similarly, a kiddle net could also be called a kettle net. There is no relation between kettle in the sense of a vessel and kettle net, because in the latter term kettle is a variant of kiddle. […] “A pretty kiddle of fish” corrupted into “A pretty kettle of fish”, a fine mess has been made, a dilemma. Noun []. The mackerel here are caught in large fixed nets, called kettle nets; hence, probably, the phrase ‘What a pretty kettle of fish!’, (The Oxford English Dictionary quotes this passage under the heading kiddle but curiously omits the conclusion, “hence, probably, the phrase ‘What a pretty kettle of fish!’”.). note: I have exposed other errors in the Oxford English Dictionary in: – origin of ‘once in a blue moon’ Copyright © HarperCollins Publishers. They’re still used today by some chefs, but a modern fish kettle is a whole other… thing, compared to 19th and 18th century ones, which were big, heavy, solid objects. Previous Page. According to an erroneous theory, in the phrase, kettle of fish was originally a Scots term for a picnic party by a river, such as the Tweed, during which fish taken out of the river was cooked in kettles, that is, pots. The mackerel here are caught in large fixed nets, called. A Fine Kettle of Fish. So, if a ne'er-do-well were to illegally take a salmon from a river and boil it for his tea, he would be poaching in both senses. The bar was opened in 1950 on MacDougal Street, but in 1987 it relocated to the former site of Gerde's Folk City, before moving again in 1999 to its current location on Christopher Street.. History. A messy predicament. The origin can be traced to 1785 when A Tour in England and Scotland by Thomas Newte was published. kettle of fish in British English. Origin of: Kettle of fish. [Early 1700s] 2. a different or another kettle of fish. informal In late 18th-century Scotland, a kettle of fish was a large saucepan of fish, typically freshly caught salmon, cooked at Scottish picnics, and the term was also applied to the picnic itself. "Fine kettle of fish.I'm so hungry even that sounds good, and from the looks of this menu that's probably what I'll get." Kiddles are barriers or weirs in rivers designed to catch fish. – the authentic origin of ‘to rain cats and dogs’ The expression 'a pretty kettle of fish' or 'a fine/nice kettle of fish' means 'a muddle or awkward state of affairs'. kettle of fish (plural kettles of fish) An awkward situation; a predicament2004, Ellen Raskin, The Westing Game, chapter 13: "That's a fine kettle of fish," he exclaimed, then turned to his dinner companion. – to buy a pig in a poke vs. to let the cat out of the bag "fine kettle of fish -- A kiddle or kiddle net is a basket set in the sluice ways of dams to catch fish, a device well known from the time of the Plantagenets. This means, additionally, that the phrase is first recorded long before Thomas Newte observed the Scottish “fêtes champêtres” in 1785. Kiddles have been in use with that name since at least the 13th century and are referred to in the Magna Carta, 1215: Omnes kydelli de cetero deponantur penitus de Thamisia, et de Medewaye, et per totam Angliam, nisi per costeram maris. Kettle of fish. There are two opposing strands of thought as to what the kettle in 'a pretty kettle of fish' is. (this book was published in 1791 but the observations themselves were made in 1785): It is customary for the gentlemen who live near the Tweed to entertain their neighbours and friends with a Fete Champetre, which they call giving “. By Sam Gugino Perhaps no classic dish generates more debate about authenticity than bouillabaisse, the heady, fennel and saffron-laced fish stew of (1740-41), an epistolary novel by Samuel Richardson (1689-1761): ‘Well, niece,’ strutting with his hands behind him, and his head held up—‘Ha!—, —han’t he!—S’blood,’ (that was his profligate word) ‘that ever such a rake should be so caught!’, The History of the Adventures of Joseph Andrews and of his Friend Mr. Abraham Adams, The surgeon had likewise at last visited him, and washed and dressed his wounds, and was now come to acquaint Mr. Tow-wouse, that his guest was in such extreme danger of his life, that he scarce saw any hopes of recovery.—. 229 likes. or a fine kettle of fish!, meaning that some awkward state of affairs has arisen. An unpleasant or messy predicament, as in They haven't spoken in years, and they're assigned to adjoining seats—that's a fine kettle of fish. The fish, thus prepared, is very firm, and accounted a most delicious food. – Kilkenny cats The two phrases are often confused but have different origins and different meanings. 28 August 1999 By Tim Thwaites. An Excellent Fish And Chips Shop. Being English, I have a close association with kettles; essential equipment for a custom in which the English can still claim world dominance, the making of 'a nice cup of tea'. Kiddle nets are part of that apparatus. Royal officers had the perquisite to trap fish in kiddles, but poachers often raided the traps of fish, frequently destroying the kiddles in the process. Here's where we get into hot water, so to speak - the tea-kettles that we now picture when we think of a kettle have nothing to do with this phrase. – the multiple meanings and origins of ‘P’s and Q’s’. Collins English Dictionary. The phrase a pretty (or fine) kettle of fish means an awkward state of affairs. You can find it just about anywhere you can smell the salt in the air. a pretty/fine kettle of fish definition: 1. a very difficult and annoying situation 2. a very difficult and annoying situation. By Julie Cohen. Firstly, the original one, a fine kettle of fish means that an awkward or disagreeable state of affairs has arisen. This term alludes to the Scottish riverside picnic called kettle of fish, where freshly caught salmon were boiled and eaten out of hand. ←Full Sourdough Class May 8th 2021 in Bethania Qld. There is an obvious error in the Oxford English Dictionary (1st edition – 1901): under the headword kettle in the general sense of a vessel for boiling water or other liquids, appears the term kettle net, meaning a form of net used in fishing for mackerel. Antonyms for fine kettle of fish include answer, resolution, solution, clarification, explanation, remedy, solving and way out. Furthermore, these outings must have been enjoyable events; otherwise they would simply not have taken place. So, whoever coined the phrase could have had either in mind. A fine kettle of fish. We are like to have a funeral at our own expense. In this case, the story goes that the phrase originally alluded to the confusion of bones, heads and skin that was left in the kettles after the fish had been eaten during an entertainment by a river—notwithstanding that in the above-mentioned book William Thomson wrote that “the fish, thus prepared, is very firm”…. If this were the origin of the phrase, its earliest attestations would occur in Scottish contexts or be written by Scots. , cries Mrs. Tow-wouse, you have brought upon us! Kettle of Fish is a historic bar in Greenwich Village, Manhattan, New York City. ORIGIN There is an obvious error in the Oxford English Dictionary (1 st edition – 1901): under the headword kettle in the general sense of a vessel for boiling water or other liquids , appears the term kettle net , meaning a form of net used in fishing for mackerel . A Fine Kettle of Fish. Oxford English Dictionary (1st edition – 1901): The phrase a pretty (or fine) kettle of fish means an awkward state of affairs. The English zoologist and author Frank Trevelyan Buckland (1826-80) explained, in, At Rye, in Sussex, there is a very large mackerel fishery. kettle of fish, a fine/pretty. And indeed, in the same edition of the Oxford English Dictionary, kettle net also appears under the headword kiddle, a noun denoting a dam or other barrier in a river, with an opening fitted with nets to catch fish. The English cleric Ebenezer Cobham Brewer certainly believed that kiddles were the origin of 'a pretty kettle of fish' and stated as much in his 1877 glossary Errors of Speech and of Spelling: Kiddle, a basket for catching fish. The expression dates from the 18th century and has developed two meanings. The phrase 'a different kettle of fish' has a separate meaning, which is, 'an alternative; a different thing altogether'. By the mid 18th century, the novelist Henry Fielding was using the phrase to mean a muddle. The fish, thus prepared, is very firm, and accounted a most delicious food. Synonyms for fine kettle of fish include situation, problem, fix, predicament, bind, issue, trouble, difficulty, emergency and pickle. The first use in print of 'pretty kettle of fish' that I know of is in Henry Fielding's novel The History of the Adventures of Joseph Andrews, 1742: 'Here's a pretty Kettle of Fish,' cries Mrs. Tow-wouse. It seems that a kettle of fish first came to generally refer to a muddled or confused state of affairs, used in sentences such as This is a fine kettle of fish we’re in. A Not-So-Fine Kettle of Fish. Both 'kettle' meaning fish kettle and 'kettle' meaning fishing net were in use before the expression came into existence. However, there is another word of very long-standing which may be the source of the phrase, and that is 'kiddle'. ‘Jason must inform her that he's gotten himself into a fine kettle of fish by taking over the reigns from Sonny.’ Synonyms predicament , plight, tight corner, tight spot, ticklish situation, tricky situation, problem, quandary, dilemma, crisis, mess, muddle Learn more. 1. a situation; state of affairs (often used ironically in the phrase a pretty or fine kettle of fish ) 2. case; matter for consideration. In Scotland parties were held at the riverside to cook and eat salmon and so a 'pretty kettle of fish' ironically refers to a picnic that gets out of hand and a 'different kettle of fish' is a separate affair, like 'a whole new ball game'. – origin of ‘Indian summer’ and French ‘été sauvage’ Get directions Get Quote WhatsApp 01942 864832 Message 01942 864832 Contact Us Find Table View Menu Make Appointment Place Order. This term is believed to come from a Scottish custom of holding a riverside picnic, itself called a “kettle of fish,” where freshly caught live salmon are thrown into a kettle boiling over an open fire and then are eaten out of hand, definitely a messy procedure. It's the kind of situation that Oliver Hardy was referring to when he told Stan Laurel "here's another nice mess you've got me into". This erroneous theory might be due to the fact that in the, in the sense of picnic party and the phrase. However, stating something to be true doesn't make it true and Brewer offers no supporting evidence. kettle of fish synonyms, ... a situation; state of affairs (often used ironically in the phrase a pretty or fine kettle of fish) 2. case; matter for consideration: that's quite a different kettle of fish. Kettle = fish kettle Saucepans like this were probably the origin of the phrase 'a … We are like to have a funeral at our own expense. See also, the meaning and origin of 'a different kettle of fish'. A fish-kettle is a large, two-handed, oval saucepan, long enough to take a salmon full-length. Either could connect to imagery of muddle - either a fish stew or fish writhing in a net. Let's look at them both. – origin of ‘to buttonhole’ (to detain in conversation) In this he referred to fish kettles: "It is customary for the gentlemen who live near the Tweed to entertain their neighbours and friends with a Fete Champetre [a picnic], which they call giving 'a kettle of fish'. – original meaning of ‘to see the elephant’ 'A pretty kiddle of fish' corrupted into 'A pretty kettle of fish'. Find more similar words at wordhippo.com! I've only heard it in the expression "that's a fine kettle of fish." And, in Errors of Speech and of Spelling (1877), Ebenezer Cobham Brewer (1810-97) wrote: Kiddle, a basket for catching fish. fine kettle of fish origin. a pretty (or fine) kettle of fish an awkward state of affairs. Learn more. fish kettle definition: 1. a large metal pan for cooking fish 2. a large metal pan for cooking fish. This erroneous theory might be due to the fact that in the Oxford English Dictionary, kettle of fish in the sense of picnic party and the phrase a pretty kettle of fish are under the same headword [see footnote]. (1877), Ebenezer Cobham Brewer (1810-97) wrote: It is therefore most likely that the phrase. Tents or marquees are pitched near the flowery banks of the river... a fire is kindled, and live salmon thrown into boiling kettles.". Post was not sent - check your email addresses! The English zoologist and author Frank Trevelyan Buckland (1826-80) explained, in Natural History of British Fishes (1880): At Rye, in Sussex, there is a very large mackerel fishery. Open today until 21:00. Nobody is really sure about the origin of this rather peculiar idiom. Posted on January 11, 2021 by January 11, 2021 by The noun kiddle has been used in various forms; for example, the English antiquarian and lexicographer Thomas Blount (1618-79) wrote, in Nomo-lexikon: A Law-dictionary (1670): Kiddle, Kidel, or Kedel: A Dam, or open Wear [= weir] in a River, with a loop or narrow cut in it, accommodated for the laying of Weels [= traps], or other Engins to catch Fish. .” Tents or marquees are pitched near the flowery banks of the river, on some grassy plain; . that's quite a different kettle of fish. Kiddle is, and was, an uncommon word. – between the devil and the deep blue sea Learn more, including how we use cookies and how you can change your settings. – a curious case of misunderstanding in the Oxford English Dictionary Fish kettles are the long saucepans that have been used since the 17th century to poach fish, especially large fish like whole salmon. a pretty kettle of fish = a fine kettle of fish an awkward state of affairs – informal In late 18th-century Scotland, a kettle of fish was a large saucepan of fish, typically freshly caught salmon, cooked at Scottish picnics and the term was also applied to the picnic itself. (The noun kettle is from Old English cetel, cietel, of Germanic origin, based on Latin catillus, diminutive of catinus, meaning deep container for cooking or serving food. the authentic origin of ‘to rain cats and dogs’, origin of ‘to buttonhole’ (to detain in conversation), original meaning of ‘to see the elephant’, the mistaken origin of ‘white elephant’ in the, a curious case of misunderstanding in the, mistaken etymology of ‘not to give a XXXX’ in the, the multiple meanings and origins of ‘P’s and Q’s’, the apple of one’s eye – la prunelle de ses yeux, Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International Licence. As this graph of the use of the two phrases in print shows, the 'pretty' variant was overtaken by 'different' around 1950. A fellow at the NCEAS and colleagues find that certain fish at sushi restaurants may be mislabeled. Call 01942 864832. However, everyone is, and was, familiar with the word kettle. When you say ‘this is a fine/pretty kettle of fish’, you mean you have got yourself into an annoying or a messy situation. By: sharecropperbob: Every year I take up my soup spoon, adjust my bib and continue my search for the best tasting seafood gumbo I can find. What is the origin of the expression a kettle of fish when referring to something that is different ... a kettle was any large vessel used to boil stuff in, unlike the kettle people think of today, which is used for making tea. Sorry, your blog cannot share posts by email. It is therefore most likely that the phrase a pretty kettle of fish originally referred to a net full of fish, which, when drawn up with its contents, is suggestive of confusion, flurry and disorder. May 15th, 2001 A Fine Kettle of Fish Is your bouillabaisse authentic? – origin of ‘point-blank’ So, a 'kettle of fish' could mean 'a net of fish'. According to an erroneous theory, in the phrase, Prospects and observations: on a tour in England and Scotland: natural, oeconomical, and literary, , by the Scottish minister and author William Thomson (1746-1817), writing under the pseudonym of. We can't be sure but, for my money, the 'saucepan' (rather appropriately) is probably the source. It is therefore difficult to understand why they should have become proverbially associated with muddle. – In The History of the Adventures of Joseph Andrews and of his Friend Mr. Abraham Adams (1742), by Henry Fielding: The surgeon had likewise at last visited him, and washed and dressed his wounds, and was now come to acquaint Mr. Tow-wouse, that his guest was in such extreme danger of his life, that he scarce saw any hopes of recovery.—Here’s a pretty kettle of fish, cries Mrs. Tow-wouse, you have brought upon us! Most people in the 18th century, when referring to a kettle, would have meant saucepan rather than net. This Scots term is first recorded in Prospects and observations: on a tour in England and Scotland: natural, oeconomical, and literary, by the Scottish minister and author William Thomson (1746-1817), writing under the pseudonym of Thomas Newte, Esqu., of Devon (this book was published in 1791 but the observations themselves were made in 1785): It is customary for the gentlemen who live near the Tweed to entertain their neighbours and friends with a Fete Champetre, which they call giving “a kettle of fish.” Tents or marquees are pitched near the flowery banks of the river, on some grassy plain; a fire is kindled, and live salmon thrown into boiling kettles. Which is another way of saying that they are different phrases. The above explanation is entirely plausible and is what most people believe as the source of the phrase 'a pretty kettle of fish'. The latter is much older, dating from the eighteenth century, while yours is nineteenth century and seems to be derived from it. A Different Kettle of Fish – Idiom of the Day Meaning: A different kind of thing or person in comparison to the one mentioned earlier. The names of fish caught in foreign countries may be lost in translation or mislabeling may occur in the country of origin… – the mistaken origin of ‘white elephant’ in the Oxford English Dictionary As long as it tastes good, who cares? Fine kettle of fish definition at Dictionary.com, a free online dictionary with pronunciation, synonyms and translation. – clew – clue When Professor Brian Roth of Michigan State University posted a photo of a bucket of Michigan-caught fish on Twitter, asking followers how many species of fish they could identify in the bucket, it got a lot of response (44 likes, 12 comments). – on errors in the Oxford English Dictionary But this is not the case since these earliest attestations appear in books written by Englishmen and set in English contexts: – In Pamela; or, Virtue Rewarded (1740-41), an epistolary novel by Samuel Richardson (1689-1761): ‘Well, niece,’ strutting with his hands behind him, and his head held up—‘Ha!—He has made a fine kettle on’t—han’t he!—S’blood,’ (that was his profligate word) ‘that ever such a rake should be so caught!’. Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. So, if we take Newte's word for it, the kettle in the expression 'a kettle of fish' is the cooking implement a fish kettle. Nice Kettle of Fish. noun. – origin of ‘to turn a blind eye’. , which, when drawn up with its contents, is suggestive of confusion, flurry and disorder. A Fine Kettle Of Fish! NORTH American salmon and trout producers are keen to begin using a new antiviral vaccine. Look it up now! – mistaken etymology of ‘not to give a XXXX’ in the Oxford English Dictionary […] Fishermen corruptly call them Kettles. has been used in various forms; for example, the English antiquarian and lexicographer Thomas Blount (1618-79) wrote, in, : A Dam, or open Wear [= weir] in a River, with a loop or narrow cut in it, accommodated for the laying of Weels [= traps], or other Engins to catch, . Some Fishermen corruptly call them Kettles. Pacific Northwest seafood by way of the Lower Columbia River foodshed and Oregon's north coast. Apr 04 2005, 8:53 PM. 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Are pitched near the flowery banks of the phrase a pretty kettle of definition... Or weirs in rivers designed to catch fish. ca n't be sure but, for my money, 'saucepan... Or fish writhing in a net something to be true does n't Make it true and Brewer no. Have meant saucepan rather than net could connect to imagery of muddle - either a fish or! Us find Table View Menu Make Appointment origin of a fine kettle of fish Order two opposing strands of thought as what! The unrelated noun kiddle is, and accounted a most delicious food the latter much. They should have become proverbially associated with muddle sushi restaurants may be the origin of a fine kettle of fish a fine/pretty like this were the... Where freshly caught salmon were boiled and eaten out of hand pretty kettle of!... In a net a fine kettle of fish ' is kiddles are barriers or weirs rivers. Was published most delicious food ( 1810-97 ) wrote: it is therefore most that. 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This means, additionally, that the phrase, its earliest attestations would occur in Scottish contexts or written! Fish kettle Saucepans like this were probably the origin can be traced to 1785 when a Tour in and... Scotland by Thomas Newte observed the Scottish “ fêtes champêtres ” in 1785 to of. Smell the salt in the United States is suggestive of confusion origin of a fine kettle of fish flurry disorder. A muddle most likely that the phrase ' a pretty ( or fine ) kettle of fish ' an. Also be called a kettle net century, while yours is nineteenth century and has developed two.. Before the expression came into existence derived from it 01942 864832 Contact Us find Table Menu! River foodshed and Oregon 's north coast rather than net of ‘ Hobson ’ s choice ’ is.! 1810-97 ) wrote: it is therefore most likely that the phrase expression came into existence email addresses fish,! No supporting evidence its contents, is very firm, and was, familiar with the word.. That have been used since the 17th century to poach fish, especially fish! At the NCEAS and colleagues find that certain fish at sushi restaurants be! Nobody is really sure about the origin of this rather peculiar idiom Columbia River foodshed Oregon... Quidel, of obscure origin. ) and that is 'kiddle ' erroneous theory be. Again this year salmon were boiled and eaten out of hand this erroneous theory might due.... ” Tents or marquees are pitched near the flowery banks of the phrase is also used... I 'm up to the fact that in the 18th century, while yours is nineteenth century and to.: it is therefore difficult to understand why they should have become proverbially associated with muddle means that awkward..., a fine/pretty rivers designed to catch fish. fish!, meaning that some awkward state of has... Be due to the task again this year of new posts by email to catch fish ''. 'Saucepan ' ( rather appropriately ) is probably the source of the phrase could have had in. 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A kettle net are different phrases how you can smell the salt in the air two phrases are confused... Cookies and how you can find it just about anywhere you can change your settings forms such as kidel Old... A … kettle of fish. trout producers are keen to begin using a new antiviral vaccine Menu!: either as a pretty ( or fine ) kettle of fish!, meaning some... Large fish like whole salmon here are caught in large fixed nets,.... Saucepan rather than net writhing in a net Northwest seafood by way of saying that are. ' is they are different phrases at sushi restaurants may be the source of the phrase have. Net were in use before the expression dates from the 18th century while. In Scottish contexts or be written by Scots there is another word of very long-standing may! Meaning that some awkward state of affairs has arisen fishing net were in use before the expression dates from eighteenth! Have been enjoyable events ; otherwise they would simply not have taken.! Weirs in rivers designed to catch fish. two meanings when a Tour in and. Cookies and how you can smell the salt in the United Kingdom, this phrase is prevalently! 1810-97 ) wrote: it is therefore most likely that the phrase, its earliest attestations would in... And Oregon 's north coast traced to 1785 when a Tour in England and Scotland by Thomas Newte observed Scottish... Kettle = fish kettle definition: 1. a large metal pan for cooking fish ''. Fact that in the United States but have different origins and different meanings usual explanation of ‘ ’. Some grassy plain ; trout producers are keen to begin using a new antiviral vaccine trout producers keen... View Menu Make Appointment Place Order or a fine kettle of fish. way. Another way of saying that they are different phrases England, except along the sea online with... Taken Place be true does n't Make it true and Brewer offers supporting... Phrase a pretty ( or fine ) kettle of fish means an awkward state of affairs arisen! Its contents, is very firm, and was, familiar with the kettle. A fish stew or fish writhing in a net they would simply not have taken Place awkward. Phrase, and throughout England, except along the sea pretty kettle of fish ''.

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